There Are People Who Really Think Like This

Stand aside Michael Crichton, you have been upstaged. A whole pod of right-wing sci-fi has beens are chiming in with the most peculiar suggestions for fixing social shortcomings heard this side of the Puppeteer Homeworld. What makes this crew spooky is the Department of Homeland Security is reportedly listening to their advice, and that's not fiction:

Sadly, No -- The group has the ear of Department of Homeland Security Undersecretary Jay Cohen, head of the science and technology directorate, who has said he likes their unconventional thinking. ...  Among the group’s approximately 24 members is Larry Niven, the bestselling and award-winning author of such books as "Ringworld". Niven said a good way to help hospitals stem financial losses is to spread rumors in Spanish within the Latino community that emergency rooms are killing patients in order to harvest their organs for transplants.

It isn't the first crazy thing Niven has said, but it may be the most despicable yet: Larry Niven is the great grandson of oil tycoon Edward L. Doheny whose clumsy bribe kicked off a corruption investigation that eventually led to the Teapot Dome scandal. Buoyed by a massive trust fund set up by grandpa Doheney, Niven's never had to worry a day in his life about healthcare or anything else for that matter. I doubt it would knock any sense into him, but right about now I'd say Larry could use an uninsured visit to the ER, after a bone snapping wake up call administered by a pissed off Pak Protector suffering from Tree-of-Life withdrawal and a litter of starving Kzinti kits chewing on his raw, salted ass. Anything left over can go to the alleged organ banks. After all, as Niven was fond of writing, they're always empty.

•  Despicable <n/t>

  by jds1978 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:47:13 AM PDT

  •  Now I am going to have to give my copy of

    Ringworld to the Rush Limbaugh Library.  I'm SURE that there is one, right?
    This is mindbendingly bad.  

    by kate mckinnon on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:25 AM PDT

    •  You think that's bad?

      What am I going to do without Nevinyrral's Disk?

      by MikeTheLiberal on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:28:36 AM PDT

  •  ryan81, why the HR?

    I hope that was an accident; otherwise, you need to explain yourself.

    by Nowhere Man on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:54:29 AM PDT

    •  It's pretty hard to do accidentally.

      Unlike the simple, one-step process of clicking the Recommend button, clicking the Hide button generates a dialog box (Are you SURE you want to Hide Rate this Comment?) that requires you to answer and tells you how many Hide Rates you have left for the day.

      There is NO way someone can "accidentally" hide a comment any longer. It's deliberate and it's ratings abuse.

      The only possible way it could be "accidental" is if you had clicked on the wrong poster's comment to hide.

      by Brooke In Seattle on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:45:00 AM PDT

      •  I was trying to be tactful :-) (n/t)

        by Nowhere Man on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:54:30 AM PDT

        •  I know.

          I was trying to explain for non TUs, who might think that was a plausible excuse. ;~)

          by Brooke In Seattle on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:58:12 AM PDT

          •  How do these people get TU status, anyway?

            I've been on dKos for 3.5 years, and I think I've had it for a cumulative grand total of one month.

            by admiralh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:13:17 AM PDT

            •  A lot of them go to Mojo Friday.

              That was done a lot when the candidate wars were really in full force.  Mojo Friday was never meant for that reason, but a lot of trolls take advantage of it.

              by oibme on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:25:55 AM PDT

            •  Don't worry about it

              Every time I get it, I find it stresses me out.  I feel pressure to keep commenting enough to keep it.

              I just got it again yesterday, for the first time in months.

              by ppluto on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:08:50 AM PDT

            •  lucky you, I have been on

              since almost the very first and I have never had it.

              Oh well!

              by xerico on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:59:23 AM PDT

  •  Updated for incomprehensible TR abuse.

    by raboof on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:57:41 AM PDT

    •  Me, too. n/t

      by oibme on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:26:28 AM PDT

  •  I don't believe he's serious.

    From the original article:

    Niven said a good way to help hospitals stem financial losses is to spread rumors in Spanish within the Latino community that emergency rooms are killing patients in order to harvest their organs for transplants.

    "The problem [of hospitals going broke] is hugely exaggerated by illegal aliens who aren’t going to pay for anything anyway," Niven said.

    "Do you know how politically incorrect you are?" Pournelle asked.

    "I know it may not be possible to use this solution, but it does work," Niven replied.

    "I cannot guarantee I’m going to be a great help to Homeland Security," Niven said earlier.

    Reading the rest of the article, it sounds a hell of a lot more like the SF writers in attendance have no intention of being useful to Homeland Security, but are instead throwing a wrench into the machinery by being typical SF writers (i.e. tossing around any old thing that comes into their heads for concentrated argument for the hell of it) at a government-paid (bonus!) convention. I'd certainly be inclined to want to hear Niven's side before deciding he's Cheney's right hand.

    by Daddy Bartholomew on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:21:01 AM PDT

    •  Forgot this...

      Again, from the original article:

      The 45-minute panel discussion quickly deteriorated as federal, local and state homeland security officials, and at least one congressional aid, attempted to ask questions, which were largely ignored.

      Instead the writers used their time to pontificate on a variety of tangentially related topics, including their past roles advising the government, predictions in their stories that have come to pass, the demise of the paperback book market, and low-cost launch into space.

      by Daddy Bartholomew on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:21:53 AM PDT

    •  It doesn't matter if it's serious or not

      it's still an evil, vicious thing to say. Not just even, but especially if he's joking.

      And also a seriously ignorant one, given that Niven conflates "Latino" with "illegal".

      And yes, those guys do have delusions of grandeur, of being the Wise Men behind thrones, this isn't a new thing, they've been boasting of coming up with hitech solutions for the govmint for years now, it's not news in fandom at least. - and Pournelle is a kneejerk conservative and Bushie who has argued on his website that we have to support the war even tho' it's a bad idea because dammit he's the Preznit.

      by bellatrys on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:26:14 AM PDT

      •  Didn't say he was "joking"

        To me, "joking" means you think it is funny, and can be a truly revealing indicator of your personality.

        Sci-fi writers don't necessarily agree, disagree, are amused by, love, hate, or in any way condone any of their ideas. They are thought experiments, which can be used as fodder for writing. They get used to tossing around truly horrific concepts in a casual manner, to peer at them from all sides and see if they will yield some basis for a story, from one perspective or another.

        And they often get real tired of hearing people ask them, "Where DO you get your ideas?!"

        That being said, when a writer moves into personal advocation of a course of action, then it reflects more on their actual personality.

        I don't see any indication of that here.

        by Daddy Bartholomew on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:35:52 AM PDT

      •  Touchy aren't we?

        What amazes me is that people read this quote and take it seriously.  This is Niven's modest proposal.

        Evil, vicious, but remarkably insightful and useful.  By pointing out that the "solution" is in horribly bad taste, and will kill thousands of people he mocks the both question and the assumption  that illegal immigrants using health care is a problem.

        So my question to Darksyde and anyone who is seriously offended by this exchange is are "there really people who think like this?"

        by AndersOSU on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:52:55 AM PDT

        •  But you don't say "modest proposal" stuff ...

          to people in the Bush administration who will actually do it.

          by raboof on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:00:15 AM PDT

          •  I AM SO ANGRY ALREADY POSTED ON MY BLOG!

            http://immigrationmexicanamerican.bl...

            by Dee321 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:45:01 AM PDT

        •  If you have ever heard of Dr. Mengele

          of Germany during WWII, you have your answer.  And he was one of many.

          by oibme on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:28:40 AM PDT

        •  Nicely put.

          After several weeks of "All Jeremiah Wright All The Time" I should think we on this side of the blogosphere would be aware there is such a thing as context.

          If, as above, you're going to condemn Niven for these remarks even knowing that he didn't mean them to be taken seriously, then you might want to consider shredding your copy of 1984 -  Orwell must have been a truly horrible man to have constructed such a blueprint for totalitarianism, after all.

          That said, Niven and frequent collaborator are known for a certain amount of rightward-trending thought.  And in spite of that, I've enjoyed their work, and would recommend it to afficionados of the genre.  

          Finally, if Phillip K. Dick were still alive, he very likely would have made similar proposals.  The only difference is, in his case there would be no doubt that he considered them hellish.

          by Roddy McCorley on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:29:02 AM PDT

        •  "Modest Proposal"

          Wasn't that Jonathan Swift's snarky "suggestion" to the solution of Irish overpopulation by suggesting that their children could be eaten by the English?

          by Uthaclena on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:37:46 AM PDT

          •  yes

            by leema on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:10:58 AM PDT

          •  This is clearly a "modest proposal"

            This can not be emphasized enough.

            by Geotpf on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:59:08 AM PDT

        •  modest proposal

          that's what I was going to say too -- he's just being outrageous for the sake of it.

          by ppluto on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:14:08 AM PDT

    •  Niven is the inventor of the "corpsicle"

      after all.  I don't like his writing, but he does have a sense of humor.

      by sagra on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:01:57 AM PDT

    •  Not to be taken seriously

      Three things to take into account:

      1. As Daddy Bartholemew mentioned, science fiction writers are  famous for tossing around ideas when they get together and treating serious situations as potential plots for new fiction. I agree that it may be irresponsible to suggest something like that in a forum where idiots with power might actually act on it, but ruminating about devious social engineering is exactly what science fiction writers do - usually to create cautionary tales. People who sit around thinking up plots for thrillers about terrorists aren't terrorists themselves, and people who write utopian fiction might well be in it for the money rather than being more highly moral beings themselves...

      2. Larry Niven has the world's best poker face and an extremely strange sense of humor, and occasionally he says something sarcastic that people take seriously. I would need to know the context of the remark - he may have been making some point about the power of rumor and innuendo.

      3. I have heard Niven speak many  times at science fiction convention panels, and I find him  impossible to fit in any standard niche in the conservative/liberal spectrum. He seems to have a horror  of tyranny, corporate, governmental, or religious, and whatever else he is, he he is a skeptic. He keeps company with people from across the political spectrum and occasionally challenges all of them. It is not possible to divine his beliefs from his writings any more than it is with other authors who have created varied characters. Perhaps this controversy will cause him to articulate what he actually believes; I look forward to hearing his explanation.

      by PoliticallyNonEuclidean on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:58:35 AM PDT

    •  I doubt he meant it seriously

      Like a lot of people here, I think it was a "Modest Proposal" kind of statement. Which doesn't mean it was a smart thing to say. It was really dumb and irresponsible.

      But right now, that doesn't surprise me. Niven's books show that he is getting old. Several recent ones simply shouldn't have been published - they're vacant, meandering, and unworthy of editorial (let alone readerly) attention. I like a lot of his older stuff; his writing was usually good, though never truly great, and some of his ideas and larger constructs of future history were brilliant, and usually the stories built from them were good.

      But the man is clearly declining. His editors know that his name will sell books, so they don't bother editing him anymore, since that would probably mean just throwing a lot of the new books out completely.

      These comments are just another sign of his decline. Sad, deplorable, but probably not a sign that he's some misanthropic, racist monster.

      by rcbowman on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:59:40 AM PDT

•  I just finished reading a Larry Niven novel

  Draco's Tavern

  by aaraujo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:48:27 AM PDT

•  Larry's a great writer

  But what he said was just awful.

  by Ivan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:48:32 AM PDT

  •  You

    know, I wouldn't boycott an author or an artists simply becuase I disagreed with their politics or because they said something asinine. Ted Nugent's Stanglehold is a great song, even if Nugent's political views are off the chart crazy.  I'd point the finger of anger more at the DHS or the amdinisttration or candidate that encourages lets kooks Hagee or Robertson, or in this case Larry Niven, to actually have influience on their thinking. There's always going to be people with kooky ideas. And in the world of sci-fi kooky idea and fascinating speculation can be one and the same. What we don;t need is a government that cannot distinguish between entertaining fiction and useful policy suggestion.

    There is something particular loathsome about a pampered trust fund brat scheming with government decision makers on how to scare working class people away form basic emergency healthcare. That's why I let him have it.

    by DarkSyde on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:14:44 AM PDT

    •  NPR this morning

      A story about some Brit SF award about to be handed out I think....

      Interviewee admitted that there hadn't been an idea out of any science fiction story that has become reality in a dog's age.

      by PBen on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:18:31 AM PDT

      •  "Dog's age" is relative

        Interviewee admitted that there hadn't been an idea out of any science fiction story that has become reality in a dog's age.

        That interviewee might not have been as well read as he thought he was. Orson Scott Card anticipated blogs in "Speaker for the Dead" and "Xenocide."

        Lary Niven was writing about "organleggers" in the 1970s.

        by Ivan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:23:57 AM PDT

        •  Don't you mean Ender's Game?

          Valentine and Peter spend a lot of time on the net.

          by Crisis Corps Volunteer on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:41:37 AM PDT

          •  Well, that, too.

            by Ivan on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:43:30 AM PDT

            •  When I read the book ...

              I could buy the part about the battle kids, but people having great political influence through Internet postings? No way.

              Of course, we all know now that Kos is really a ten-year-old boy, and the guy that does the public appearances is really an actor hired for his looks.

              by raboof on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:48:24 AM PDT

              •  Had to rec this...

                What a great drive by butt kiss  =):

                by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:21:09 AM PDT

                •  Then again, Kos does look very young

                  though I haven't seen him since his latest kid has caused him to burn more candles at both ends.

                  by ColoTim on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:10:09 AM PDT

    •  Yeah, Nugent's a fascist...

      ...and he's an outspoken homophobe, and a racist, but I go to his concerts and buy his CDs because he carries a Glock 20 just like I do!  d;^)
      (Just kidding: I don't go to his concerts or buy his music, but we do share a healthy respect for the 10mm Auto cartridge).

      Seriously, I enjoyed reading pretty much all of Niven's fiction, but I can stop now.

      by willie horton on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:23:07 AM PDT

    •  Agree with that

      Orson Scott Card is a bit off the deep end when it comes to Iraq, for example, but Ender's Game and Speaker for the Dead are two of the best books I've ever read. I try to focus on whether they write interesting stories, and they can be interesting even if they contain politics that are disagreeable.

      by corwin on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:23:40 AM PDT

      •  He wants us to start punishing gays again

        legally in public, to discourage people from being gay...

        by bellatrys on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:27:32 AM PDT

        •  Do you have a link to that?

          It would be a bit surprising, not that he is opposed to gays, but that he is into some sort of retribution. And he has had a few gay characters in a couple of his books.

          by corwin on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:31:21 AM PDT

          •  In his own words

            http://www.nauvoo.com/...

            by Curufinwe on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:02:12 AM PDT

          •  my fellow Silm fan has linked to his very rant

            but it was a huge deal in the YA lit realm about two months ago b/c he was honored with a lifetime achievement award by the Young Adult Library Services Association, causing a lot of distress among GLBT readers and friends of same. (via Comic Gays linkblog)

            After Elton's commentary

            A gay fan of OSC speaks on his reaction to discovering how OSC wants to treat him, and other people like him.

            Lesbian Gamers on OSC's homophobia in light of an upcoming Ender's Game video game.

            by bellatrys on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 03:53:12 PM PDT

      •  I like the Alvin Maker series, myself.

        However, I'm a little confused. Judging from Card's posts on his own website, we're supposed to consider Reverend Thrower to be a positive role model for America.

        by AdmiralNaismith on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:45:46 AM PDT

        •  Yeah.. I had to stop reading card books...

          After alvin maker and the homecoming books.. he seems to have become less covert in his proselytizing with age I think. I explicitly asked about this trend in his later books on hatrack a while back, they responded by deleting me. Haven't been back since.

          Sadly, as I get older every time I re-read it I like Ender's game less and less... The later books in the series I read, but just didn't connect with.

          It's sad to see niven is such a schmuck, I really liked 'footfall', even if the ending was a little clumsy.

          by Serpents Sorrow on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:31:18 AM PDT

        •  Lots of what you get from Card's writing

          is exactly the opposite of what he intends.

          I enjoyed Hart's Hope and Pastwatch, but the characters in Pastwatch are way repressed.

          by sagra on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 11:30:03 AM PDT

      •  Card's latest novel...

        ...Empire, is flat out laughable.  Basically a handful of stout hearted "real Americans" foil the plot to take over government by a left wing group financed by a, not so subtle, George Soros characterture.
        Not only is it a right wing political wet dream, it is really a crappy piece of writing.

        by carver on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:21:46 AM PDT

      •  Why do we call them "Sci Fi" writers?

        Most of us understand this tacitly, but  it might help to say it straight out: The ideas of science fiction writers tend to be highly impractical, if not downright disastrous.

        For one thing, the genre thrives on dystopian disasters. Who's going to buy a book depicting a future where everything works and everybody is happy?

        The result of market demand for dystopian drama is that their ideas tend to generate obvious problems, which can be somewhat resolved in around 300 pages.

        What we should really be asking is why Homeland Security isn't seeking advice from professional sociologists and other people whose jobs it is to study the very problems they want to solve. Why invite a bunch of immature sci-fi writers to discuss a serious problem?

        The answer to that question is far more embarrassing than what Niven spouted, whether or not he was trying to be serious.

        by jimbo92107 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:55:29 AM PDT

        •  Well, the Star Trek franchise did utopia OK

          Gene Roddenberry had a very frankly utopian vision for humanity's future when he came up with Star Trek. But IMO I think the dramatic quality of the Star Trek universe as Roddenberry's direct involvement ended after about season 3 or so of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

          Frankly, I think dark is more interesting. It comes down to the dictum writing teachers like to repeat ad nauseam: Conflict equals drama. Which has the potential for more drama--a utopia or a dystopia? If you're not sure, watch Doctor Who, both the "classic" series and the "new" series and ask yourself which is better.

          Also there's the added layer of light triumphing over darkness, something else that's harder to come by with a utopian setting.

          by AustinCynic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:22:36 PM PDT

        •  Except for, you know,

          geosynchronous satellites.  Those turned out to be kinda practical.

          by sagra on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 01:47:37 PM PDT

•  I don't know Niven very well

  but IMHO, anyone who can stand to be in the same room as Jerry Pournelle is suspect.

  by Nowhere Man on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:48:49 AM PDT

  •  right

    And isn't that Orson Scott Card standing in the corner too?

    by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:38 AM PDT

    •  It's a common theme among sf writers

      Postulating future societies in which anything that wouldn't personally please or benefit them has been removed by some deus ex machina.  In the end though, it all comes down to eugenics, and implicitly removing Undesirables from the gene pool, no matter how much they'd like to ignore or obfuscate the problem of where all the dumb people go (Kornbluth excepted).

      Not to crib from Rumsfeld, but we (realists) have to work with the population that we've got - with lots of dumb, selfish, easily scared or led people - not the population that we'd like - super genius philanthropists bursting with fully enlightened self interest.

      SF writers, eh, they can just wave a wand (using Sufficiently Advanced Technology) and all the problems just... go away.

      So this is actually some intellectual honesty at last; Niven is effectively advocating exterminating anyone who is a burden on health care.  Well, that's one way of dealing with it.  You might even call it a Final solution.

      Oops, Godwin.  Thread over.

      by DemCurious on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:05:27 AM PDT

      •  The saddest thing about Orson Scott Card

        is that Ender's Game (especially the epilogue) and its sequel, Speaker for the Dead, are two of the most compassionate sf novels I've ever read. They promote the idea that the "other" may have as much reason to live as we do.

        Now a look at Card's website shows that he fears and hates anyone who doesn't subscribe to his warped view of "America First."

        by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:14:19 AM PDT

        •  It's fine when the Other doesn't really exist

          They can live with the idea of partying with Bug Eyed Monsters, since it means they don't have to think about all the real live Brown [Yellow / Socialist] Humans lurking outside their front door, being similar but different.  I bet none of them are particularly keen on postulating friendship with the IRS Auditors from Mars either.

          Still, at least Hubbard is rotting in Xenu's hell.  Small mercies.

          by DemCurious on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:26:30 AM PDT

          •  I guess

            But if you believe that books can have an impact, that they can help change our perceptions of the real world, then the lesson of Speaker for the Dead is that we have no right to destroy those who are different from us, that it is our moral responsibility to try to understand them, to give their lives the same status as ours.

            It's a powerful message, and a damn important one now, and one too rare in speculative fiction. I admired OSC for it, and was shocked and saddened to see that he'd renounced it.

            by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:31:23 AM PDT

      •  I had to rec you

        ...because I thought I was the only one left who knew from Cyril Kornbluth.

        by NessMonster on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:44:37 AM PDT

        •  Yeah. I found Kornbluth in the 70s, I think...

          Was really depressed to discover he was already dead, and there'd never be anything else by him. He went way too early. I don't think he'd even hit his stride yet.

          by Daddy Bartholomew on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 10:10:57 AM PDT

        •  I'll give Kornbluth some love

          I haven't read many of his stories, but the ones I have read, I've liked. "Two Dooms" is one of my favorites. A scientist gets a glimpse of what the future will be like if America doesn't develop the atomic bomb.

          by AustinCynic on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 12:24:59 PM PDT

  •  Every time I see

    Niven's name with Pournelle's, I think of that hysterical quote by Heinlein on the back cover: "Possibly the finest science fiction novel I have ever read."

    by hyperstation on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:55:12 AM PDT

    •  duh... back cover of The Mote in God's Eye n/t

      by hyperstation on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:55:42 AM PDT

  •  Heh, see my comment on Pournelle below

    If you can bear to tear away from your new transistor radio (no tubes!) for a moment. ;-)

    by kovie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:02:30 AM PDT

    •  I remember those Byte columns

      I never was the most adept at reading between the lines, but it always seemed to me that Pournelle's columns carried an undertone of the writer being overly impressed with himself. Having met him in person, I say the undertone was present only because of judicious editing, otherwise the entire column would have been devoted to autohagiography.

      For a little more background on him, you could browse through an old Usenet discussion on how Pournelle had been kicked off the Arpanet (an earlier incarnation of the Internet) about thirteen years prior (so now over 20 years ago.)

      (I admit that this is little more than hearsay and innuendo, but I knew some of the folks in that discussion, and I seriously doubt that any of them had any kind of grudge against Pournelle until he started acting like ... well, like Jerry Pournelle.)

      by Nowhere Man on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:39:55 AM PDT

      •  I enjoyed the "Chaos Manor" columns

        However, I don't remember him ever saying who paid for all that cool stuff.

        The other funny thing was the Pournelle was such a PC bigot it wasn't even funny. He would dismiss Macs out of hand, and then write almost joyfully about how it took him 6 hours to figure out how to hook up his new printer to the old PC he pulled out of a closet.

        by admiralh on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:55:19 AM PDT

        •  We was quite joyful in his cluelessness

          John Dvorak's sort of taken over that role over at PC Mag, where he write some seriously crazyass stuff posing as technical expertise. Perhaps they both catered to otherwise underserved readership that likes technology despite being clueless about it, and also likes to indulge in whacko conspiracy theories. I used to run into these types when shopping for accessories at the local Radio Shack before the computer superstores sprung up (I also sort of got the same vibe from people who hang out in upscale audio/video stores and insist that any stereo setup that costs less than $20k is crap--me, I haven't bought a new stereo since the early 80's!).

          by kovie on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:10:02 AM PDT

  •  Unlike Pournelle's Writing

    I do enjoy Niven's, but I learned to respect neither of them sometime in the 1970's after reading an interview of them in which, iirc, they mocked recycling by prosletyzing for sources of "unlimited energy" (i.e., nuclear power)with the battle cry of 'give me unlimited power and you can make everything disposable!' or something to that effect. Great advertisments for a Pig Culture, I thought.

    by Uthaclena on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:45:51 AM PDT

•  I'm speechless...and dismayed that

  you have, apparently, been forced to read Niven's work.  His plan would be brilliant if every member of the Latino community was dumb as rocks.

  Luckily for our side, they are not. Unluckily for their side, much of the Latino population knows what the wingers think of them.

  by ksh01 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:48:52 AM PDT

  •  And, you know

    some of them can speak English too.

    by Jonathanonymous on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:54:19 AM PDT

    •  I heard that rumor....

      sneaky of them...

      by ksh01 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:57:59 AM PDT

    •  It's just that they don't let on.

      by Champurrado on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:04:53 AM PDT

      •  ha ha ha

        Niven said a good way to help hospitals stem financial losses is to spread rumors in Spanish within the Latino community that emergency rooms are killing patients in order to harvest their organs for transplants.

        Y'all beat me to it!
        it is called bilingual!
        Just because we speak Spanish doesn't mean we don't know English.
        The other stupid thing is that because we are lighter in skin color than African Americans we were somehow deemed as a more palatable mate to many racist wingnutty types.  And given our old fashion culture also deemed more desirable spouses than "bra burning white feminists" so lots of Hispanic women are married to white men.  Also, we can look white and be Hispanic. Add this to our large interconnected families and that plan falls immediately into the trashcan.
        Only very self contained and isolated people would think that that would work.
        They must have never been to a hospital.......
        Some of the doctors, the nurses, the nurses aids and the orderlies in the health care system near a big population of HIspanic Americans are also Hispanic.
        People go to emergency rooms not because they are Hispanic but because they don't have health care insurance.

        by TexMex on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:29:11 AM PDT

        •  I'm not sure...

          ... but I'm gonna bet Niven is well aware of how many of us are bilingual.

          I agree with the poster above, that this was a big-ole "F-U" by the writers.  Some are more right-wing than others, but ALL of them love publicity - and this invitation to be 'consultants' is nothing more than a publicity stunt.

          What I find sad is, I think you might get actually ,real useful ideas from this group if they were seriously asked for them.  They have made a lifetime of taking the long-term, big-picture view of things - something sadly missing from our gov't.   Sure, the righties would suggest things we wouldn't like, but sifting through serious ideas is always a useful excercise.  

          by Timoteo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:42:23 AM PDT

        •  I haven't seen stats on

          what I'm about to write, but I'm pretty sure that a larger portion of the Latino population in the US speaks English as compared to the non-Latino population's Spanish speaking abilities.

          by ksh01 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:59:16 AM PDT

        •  Some go because they actually have Emergencys

          People go to emergency rooms not because they are Hispanic but because they don't have health care insurance.

          Also plenty of people with insurance who have cut themselves or slipped and broken bones or have had car accidents.

          But I do agree with your meaning.

          by Anthony Segredo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:12:14 AM PDT

      •  ¿ Como?!? n/t

        by Uthaclena on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:50:06 AM PDT

  •  I have not and will not read his books.

    What he said has brought me to tears this morning. How could someone be so cruel! I certainly hope this hate mongering does not discourage our not yet documented Latino and Latina friends from getting the health care they desperately need and are entitled to. As people powered kossacks, we must fight this hate and bigotry and remind those in the Latino/a communities that this is exactly the way the LGBT community is treated. The right-wing would prefer that both communities be exterminated.

    by kevinspa on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:14:19 AM PDT

    •  Well

      I don't know of anyting Niven has written recently. But Lucifer's Hammer for example was outstanding. The only reason I took a shot at Niven was because that idea was particularly sick given he's a trust fund brat whose never had to work a day in his life. And it was just so much fun in an MST3K osbcure reference kinda way.

      Not all SIGMA sci-fi writers are this far gone, There's a registred member of Daily Kos here that belongs, and he's one smart cookie.

      by DarkSyde on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:28:07 AM PDT

      •  I was hoping that this statement was an homage to

        This

        by Sacramento Dem on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:49:32 AM PDT

      •  But also a clue to his worldview

        in Lucifer's Hammer. I loved it as a kid but was appalled rereading it as an adult. The comet hits, all the black people become a tribe of cannibals, and the women all stand up and cheer bc it's once again a man's world?
        Yech.

        by kathy in virginia on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:53:42 AM PDT

        •  Not to mention that . . .

          . . . the climactic battle is to save a nuclear power plant, and the gawdawful death scene with Senator Jellison saying to "give my children the lightning."  Ugh.

          Then again, there are scenes in Casablanca that make me cringe, too, and it's still a damn fine movie.  But I saw the whole cannibals vs. nuclear power plant workers as being part of Niven and Pournelle's preference for technological solutions.

          Now, you want to read a book that'll really get your hackles up, try Fallen Angels by Niven, Pournelle, and Michael Flynn, in which a Green Party-type government causes a new Ice Age by cutting down on greenhouse gases.

          by NessMonster on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:54:23 AM PDT

          •  Fallen Angels.

            Isn't that the 1992 roman à clef where the characters are all recognizable (if you happen to have been there, then) take-offs on Big Name Fans from California SF fandom? (googles) Yes, right... I thought so.

            It's available online in the Baen Free Library. As far as actual, you know, SF writing... world-building, plot, character development, that kind of thing... these guys were either phoning it in on this one, or deliberately parodying themselves.

            If you know the people involved, it's apparently a real hoot. Otherwise, not so much.

            by Canadian Reader on Thu May 01, 2008 at 01:45:03 PM PDT

      •  I always had a bit of a problem with the ending:

        (and it's probably been 20 years since I read it); the central component of the Earth's victory was the commanding general disobeying the direct order of the President, and having that be presented unambiguously as a good thing.  (i) It does real violence to the concept of civilan control of the military; and (ii) it was another piece in the meme of military practicality and "liberal" inability to understand the realities of life that has become so entrenched as part of the basic set of assumptions that get used in American public discourse.

        Having said that, it was a good book and I enjoyed it.  I also have to say (and would say that about Niven's ER comment as well), that it's always difficult to separate what goes into a story to advance a plot from what a writer really thinks.

        by PeterHug on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:54:11 AM PDT

      •  yeah, my shot on his writing was

        gratuitous....the shot on his way of thinking was real.

        by ksh01 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:54:48 AM PDT

      •  Lucifer's Hammer is a classic jekyll&hyde

        The first half of the book is IMHO hands-down the best runup-to-the-end-of-civilization piece I've ever read.

        The latter half is a repulsive racist screed.

        Niven is a heckuva writer with issues. Pournelle is a protofascist blowhard hack.

        by Uncle Cosmo on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:33:51 AM PDT

      •  Huh?

        You make a crack about the Puppeteer Homeworld, and you say you're not familiar with anything he's written lately?  His most recent book is about the Puppeteer Homeworld:  Fleet of Worlds.

        by NessMonster on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:57:05 AM PDT

    •  They're good books.

      If you like sf, he's well worth reading. I especially like short story collections; "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" is in there somewhere! Pick 'em up used if you don't feel like sending him any royalties.

      by mjfgates on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:04:20 AM PDT

      •  I've let my Superman fan friends read that a lot

        He's one I've tried reading nearly everything he's produced.  I really love his Known Space environment, filled with short stories and novels.  Haven't gotten so much into all the other writers using his universe.

        Now, however, I'll re-read things with more of an analytical mind.  Maybe I won't enjoy them quite so much.

        by ColoTim on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:17:27 AM PDT

•  Larry Niven

  wrote about organ banks back in the 1970s, in his "Known Space" stories.

  But I never realized he approved of them!

  I'd give away my collection of his books, if I hadn't already long since done so.

  by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:48:57 AM PDT

  •  Dick move on Niven's part, for sure

    But the sneer about Niven not having to earn a living is just opportunistic snottiness.

    He's worked productively in his chosen field and earned what I'm certain is a considerable amount of money in it.

    by Joe Beese on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:47:56 AM PDT

    •  Trust fund

      I seem to remember reading that, when he decided to become a science fiction writer, he also decided that his writing would also be he only source of money.

      Of course, that could be so much SF.

      by Spoc42 on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:52:47 AM PDT

  •  I suspect that's where this came from.

    Looks like he's into that stage some SF writers reach where they don't have any new ideas, so they start recycling their old ones -- with permutations that can sometimes be rather icky. (See Heinlein, Asimov, Orson Scott Card, Piers Anthony, etc.)

    SF writers do cautionary tales. A lot. "If this goes on..." is a perfectly normal trope in science fiction. No matter where it leads. It is a complete misunderstanding of science fiction to jump to the conclusion that the author approves of the resulting world. Niven's original stories about organ legging were definitely in the cautionary tale tradition.

    But then he found himself up on a stage required to brainstorm in public, and nothing in particular came to mind, so he raked up something old. Doesn't mean he approves of it now, either. He just didn't have anything else.

    And he's been working his whole lifetime in a field where outrageousness gets rewarded.

    by Canadian Reader on Thu May 01, 2008 at 02:05:25 PM PDT

•  Disgusting

  That is one of the worst things I've ever read. It really gives you a sick insight into how some people's minds turn (and a new meaning to the word SICKO).

  Thanks for sharing...I think.

  by BamaBacker on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:13 AM PDT

•  Niven should stick to writing science fiction

  I like his work, but that suggestion was nothing short of obscene.

  by Sean Robertson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:15 AM PDT

  •  I haven't read him

    but this quote doesn't exactly recommend him to me.

    It isn't just that it is imaginative but evil, it is flat out stupid.  He thinks that if the rumor started in Spanish it would only reach Latinos?  How dense would a government have to be to think that this wouldn't be discovered?

    by Jonathanonymous on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:02:51 AM PDT

    •  He's actually a very good author

      I'm a pretty big fan of the Ringworld series and he also wrote a book about Mars that was fairly good.  He's the classic example of a person who should stick to what they do best and leave the serious stuff to someone else. ;-)

      by Sean Robertson on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 09:14:10 AM PDT

•  People like Niven prove how compassionate...

  ...this nation as a whole truly is.  If that was not the case, certainly Niven's dead carass would have been rotting away in some sewer for some time by now.

  by Randall Sherman on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:19 AM PDT

  •   For raising the estate tax anyone?[end]

    by daliscar on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:06:46 AM PDT

•  Blech

  I used to read Niven as a kid. Never realized he was a despicable wingnut.

  by discocarp on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:24 AM PDT

  •  too many of my favorite sf writers

    have turned out to be...crazy.

    by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:50:22 AM PDT

    •  You know...

      there are still old copies of Devil's Tower and News from the Edge still available.

      Just sayin'

      by Devilstower on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:03:42 AM PDT

      •  wait a second...

        is that you?!

        by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:10:51 AM PDT

        •  That depends...

          on the nature of the review you're about to deliver.

          by Devilstower on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:13:12 AM PDT

          •  LOL

            Well, rest assured, I loved Devil's Tower and Devil's Engine. You're an excellent writer (something I already knew from here) and both of those books have memorable, surprising stories...something that's not so easy to pull off in sf these days.

            Definitely time to re-read them.

            I haven't read News from the Edge or your others, but will seek them out as well.

            This is really cool. I had no idea. I'm a writer too, with a bunch of nonfiction books and a handful of short stories to my name--but I've never tried sf, even though I grew up reading it. So of course I admire anyone who can write it even more.

            by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:23:57 AM PDT

            •  Hey, you're the one!

              I knew there was someone else who bought a copy of those books.  

              Seriously, I'm glad you enjoyed them.

              They were a blast to write.  I have a third book in the series (with Annie Oakley working as an assassin for a William Jennings Bryan administration that's secretly controlled by Mary Baker Eddy), but since I no longer have an editor, or publisher, or an agent, I suspect the third one will never see daylight.

              If you've already shown that you can tackle sitting down and cranking out 400 pages of manuscript, you have a huge leg up on other would-be authors.  Get yourself back in the chair and write.

              by Devilstower on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:40:59 AM PDT

              •  I can't believe it!

                I have a third book in the series (with Annie Oakley working as an assassin for a William Jennings Bryan administration that's secretly controlled by Mary Baker Eddy), but since I no longer have an editor, or publisher, or an agent, I suspect the third one will never see daylight

                Sometimes I hate the publishing world, even though on balance it's been kind to me. That book deserves to see daylight.

                by JoeW on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:48:33 AM PDT

    •  Have you read Brin's blog?

      ... at least he knows it when he's acting crazy. (also, he tried to keep the panel on something approaching the reason why it was called)

      by RisingTide on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:31:33 AM PDT

•  I am so disappointed. I did not know

  this about Niven. I loved his books, but had no idea he was a nut.  Guess I won't be spending a dime for another one.
  So it goes.

  by coloradocomet on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 06:49:39 AM PDT

  •  His 1992 novel with Pournelle, Fallen Angels

    excerpts here, kind of gives it away bigtime (eco-feminist fantasy-fans force environmentalism on the world thru liberal governments, thus stopping global warming, which is the only thing protecting us from a new ice age; manly Hard SF fans stage a rebellion and Restore Civilization thru the wonders of Technology!!!!)

    by bellatrys on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:11:12 AM PDT

    •  I liked that book...

      and the Left can go crazy just as easy as the Right can. Herd minds think alike.

      That said, most science fiction writers are a bit more out there, and a little less conservative than people think they are (at least according to David Brin, who ought to know)

      by RisingTide on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 07:33:20 AM PDT

      •  Well, to each his own

        Myself, I don't like my fictional adversaries so caricatured, even when they're rightwingnuts, that they're unrecognizable; I prefer my story threats to be plausible, even when unrealisitic (q.v. Aristotle's Poetics); and "everybody's equally bad" only works in conservative fantasyland, not this one where the right wing plutocrats and oil barons like Doheny's heir are the ones running the country and forcing lies on us about the science, as well.

        And before you lecture me about fandom, you might consid